I might be going soft in my old age, but there's something that is mildly perplexing to me at the moment. I am as eager as the next believer to stand up for the truth of Christ. I get to do it almost every day with my children, and a number of other times a week with those outside of my immediate family. Did it yesterday with my own father.
I hope this blog stands as testimony to that fact. There are many, many things in the modern church that shock and appal me. Just this morning I was saddened by the spoof rap video doing the rounds that is aiming for humour, and falls headlong into blasphemy. I shan't link to it, because honestly, I don't think it needs any more oxygen.
There are many preachers, teachers and general personalities with whom I have strong disagreements, but will still consider them to be brothers and sisters in the Lord. I perhaps could not in good conscience join a church with them, but that's the case with my best friend who is a Charismatic, and yet still a precious treasure to me.
I enjoy CS Lewis, who was an able apologist for the faith, even though I disagree with him on a number of points of doctrine. I love The Last Battle. I leave aside the erroneous Emeth, and revel in dialogue that explains that in our world a stable was much bigger on the inside than the outside.
I enjoy RC Sproul, though I don't see the covenant sign of baptism in the same way he does (and yes, I think I'm right *shock*)
I still cannot get my head around the notion of 'reformed charismatic', but I've been blessed by John Piper.
I couldn't be an Anglican if you paid me, but our local vicar is a dear, honest man who believes the gospel and baptises people in the river next to his church, rather than the font.
I am not shy about talking about things that are way out of line. Error is error, and rightly pointed out.
But it's important that what we are pointing out is actually error, and not merely the words of someone who is in error in some other area.
It's often appropriate to quote Origen, but the man had some highly questionable views. NT Wright is lucid and readable on every area other than justification, imho. Goodness, Steve Chalke wrote a book about the resurrection of Jesus Christ that even my unbelieving mother found compelling, and yet I would challenge him seriously about his attitude to the atonement.
Now, granted, some of these errors are more serious than others. Justification seems to me to be the very heart of the gospel, and once obscured, the whole edifice is distorted.
But it's important to note that just because one thing that someone has said is heretical - it does not follow that every last thing they have ever written is to be cast out as entirely worthless and spiritually dangerous. I used to believe that Jesus was the archangel Michael, and I even, at one point, believed in transubstantiation. You may well disagree with me over any number of doctrinal issues that I still hold to now. I've quoted Spurgeon before now, who anyone will tell you smoked cigars.
But you know what? The Puritans, and even Paul, quoted Pagans - sometimes approvingly, sometimes not. These quotes were not, in and of themselves, a blanket endorsement of the teaching of the ones quoted.
I've heard some beautiful things said by, yes, Roman Catholics. One of my favourite quotes is Mother Theresa's 'How can there be too many children? That's like saying there are too many flowers'.
I am still happy to point out RC error and even that of Mother Theresa. But it was still a beautiful and good thing for her to say.
Of course it's important to be discerning about what one hears or reads. I would imagine almost every individual who loves the Lord Jesus Christ and makes sermons would expect you to have your head screwed on when you hear them, so that you make sure for yourself that what they say is true.
But to quote a sensible or useful statement from someone who may well be unsound in another area is not a giant leap down the road of rank heresy. Nor can we expect everyone to see things the way we do the first time, or any number of times we explain it.
I did not believe the Doctrines of Grace overnight - and I am thankful that our church didn't throw us out because I couldn't get my head round total depravity. Even if you explain to someone about something you have been convinced by - as we have done a number of times about some of the worrisome elements of the emergent church - you cannot expect that they will instantly become, not only a convert to the cause, but an able apologist for it, and if they don't, you question their whole faith.
This isn't meant to be an attack - more a plea to those who are engaged in the useful and important ministry of discernment - be wise in how you approach these things. There is a place for boldness, but there is equally a need for graceful persuasion.
7/11/2006
Some thoughts on discernment.
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126 comments:
Yes, yes and yes! Libbie you hit the nail on the head again. I share your views on those you mentioned (the ones I am familiar with, that is).
Some have been in these environments where whole elder boards are in the practice of throwing the spiritual baby out with the heretical bathwater, and are now these friends of mine, are swinging as the pendulum, in acceptance of too much charismatic and other gush. They don't want to be hurtful as they have seen others be.
What do you say to this? I would like to hear from you, if you have time.
This is classic you, Libbie, and that's a good thing. Well done, and well said.
Very well said. My oldest son is a pastor in a pentecostal church, my daughter is the assistant to the Rector in an Anglican Church (born again and Charismatic), so we enjoy the differences (and some of them are huge), and rejoice in His grace. You know -- that wonderful grace of being His.
Bless you,
Iris
I think we do need to be very careful about the way we quote false teachers.
C.S. Lewis is often quoted as though he was a Christian.
God Bless
Matthew
This was just beautiful, Libbie. You were very honest and forceful, but seasoned with a generous serving of grace.
Definitely one of those things I wish I'd said!
Good stuff. We must listen carefully, think hard, choose our words judiciously, and exercise charity.
C.S. Lewis is often quoted as though he was a Christian.
Matthew you so make me laugh!
Well I am glad at least we have ONE true christian amongst the blogs! I'm sure Jesus said "Have correct doctrine and you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven"!
If our entrance into heaven was based on totally correct thinking no one would be allowed in. Luckily it is through faith in Christ, and not by works so no one can boast.
A nice post Libbie.
Simon, our entering the kingdom depends upon one doctrine, that is the Gospel message of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
If a person has never believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life without regard to there works, they are lost.
I do not know whether CS Lewis ever believed the Gospel, but it is not reflected in his writings which teach the works righteousness of Popery and Arminianism.
Simon, our entering the kingdom depends upon one doctrine, that is the Gospel message of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Yes I agree. But I would take it further. Not just one doctrine...but one PERSON. Thanks be to God.
C.S. Lewis held to the saving power of Christ. He may not meet your standards (and I am sure you would maintain they are biblical standards) of doctrinal purity in terms of the mechanics of salvation, however based on his writings, which I admit I know relatively little about, his trust is in Christ.
without regard to there works is lost
Thats an essay topic in itself!
Matthew, I hope you are keeping well and the thesis is coming along smoothly.
Hello Libbie! I've been reading your blog for several weeks, and it has been a blessing!
Thank you for this post. I read something this week that has troubled me, but I didn't know how to respond. There was no ERROR in what was written, but I it made me uncomfortable, nonetheless. I’ve learned enough by now to know that when I have such feelings I should examine MYSELF, but having done so, I still concluded that my reaction was right. Your post spoke precisely to what I was thinking and feeling, so I feel affirmed in my conclusion. Thank you!
And this is the reason I read this blog - is that you offer grace more freely than any other blog/person that might speak of it/themself as a discernment blog.
Good to hear gentle words of grace in how we approach people.
Steve
Good thoughts to take to heart.
God bless.
Libbie...this issue has been a burden on my heart for awhile now...and you put it so well! Excellent!
Simon, thanks for your regards.
It is useless to trust in Jesus Christ for something that he does not offer.
If I trust in Jesus Christ for a luxury apartment, I am not going to get a luxury apartment.
What Jesus Christ offers is eternal life.
If a person trusts Jesus to give them eternal life they will get eternal life.
However, if a person trusts Jesus for the chance to earn eternal life, she will get no such chance and she will go to hell.
Jesus did not provide a conditional promise of eternal life, He provided eternal life itself. That is what a person needs to trust Him for.
Believing in Jesus does not save. Believing in Jesus for eternal life saves.
God Bless
Matthew
Believing in Jesus does not save. Believing in Jesus for eternal life saves.
The work of faith!! Sorry couldn't resist. You know more about this than I Matthew, however I still feel uncomfortable with your analysis. It's the clause 'believing in him for eternal life'. I see what you're driving at here and yet it doesn't sit right.
I affirm what you are saying about believing in Jesus for eternal life, however I want to take this further.
Scripture opens up a mystical union with Christ that the believer experiences. He makes his home in us, we are in him and he in us (John 14). Paul describes this relationship as being 'in Christ'. So I think I want to affirm it is more than a belief (although it is that as well)...it is a union with Christ which saves us. He who dwells within us, will raise us. If we die 'in Christ' we will be raised 'with Christ. This is the hope I cling to.
If it was about assenting to purely propositional confessional statements (which does have its place btw) I don't think we are being true to the biblical witness in its entirity.
Good to chat
Simon
I agree, we can sometimes be legalistic in using quotations. It is important to remember that we are not saved by orthodoxy, and not by grace.
Equally, very few of us were always believers in the doctrines of grace. C. S. Lewis wasconverted late in life, and with a lot of baggage. Was he really a Christian? Was Wesley, who also beieved some very odd stuff? Are Arminians saved?
I would say that we should be aware of the pecularities of Lewis, as Wesley or Howell Harris, or Julian of Norwich. But do we have the right to say they were not Christians?
Sorry about the spelling. I've just read it. Oops.
Great post, Libbie. Full of insight and grace.
"Test everything; hold fast what is good" As you say some are quick to test, but quick to let go of what is good because of the source. Would anyone disregard the amazing messianic prophecy in Numbers 24 because Balaam was a false prophet?
In polemics we should attack the theology never the theologian... we all have things left to learn.
Hiareth, if an Arminian has never believed in eternal security she is lost. Wesleyanism is a denial of the saving work of Christ.
Simon, when a person affirms the proposition that she is has eternal life through Jesus Christ she receives it. The person is then born again and enters a relationship with God.
Being a Christian is about having a relationship with God, entering that relationship is through affirming that proposition that Jesus is the resurrection and the life (the one who provides eternal life to those who believe- John 11:25-27).
God Bless
Matthew
Great post Libby!
Matthew,
God saves His elect. They come to repentance and faith by His grace: Faith in the death and ressurection of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
There surely must be a season of learning the the truths of the Bible.
All new converts need to understand and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You agree with this don't you? Just curious.
"Faith in the death and ressurection of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ."
Roman Catholics have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Are they saved?
No. We are saved by faith in Christ for eternal life.
Jesus Christ suffered death and was raised to give us eternal life.
We appropriate this gift by faith.
Yes, a person who is converted may be ignorant of the whole of Christian doctrine, but to be truly redeemed she needs to have believed in Christ for eternal life.
To believe that one might get to heaven is not faith in Christ's work. It is unbelief. It is faith in a conditional salvation that God has not offered.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
By Savior, I mean He saved me from hell, my sin, and from God's wrath and judgement. He saved me, so that I will behold His glory. Is the word Savior of any significance?
I suppose people can say He is their Savior, and not mean the One who saved them.
BTW, I appreciate your thoughts. They are good thoughts.
Thanks, Donsands.
If you thought there was a possibility that you might still go to hell, you obviously would not be trusting in Jesus as Saviour. That is the position of the Catholic and the Wesleyan.
God Bless
Matthew
Hi Libbie,
Sorry if my conversation with Matthew is clogging up your blog!
Simon, when a person affirms the proposition that she is has eternal life through Jesus Christ she receives it. The person is then born again and enters a relationship with God.
I wonder whether the scriptures present the reverse of this:
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life
Believe in the Son. Then through the Son you will realise you have eternal life. As 1John says: The Son is eternal life (5:20) and whoever has God's Son has life (5:12).
I just question whether your clause 'believing in him for eternal life' is additional to what is required. I expect you to quote other passages from Romans etc but I would appreciate you dealing with John first and you understanding of these verses.
Blessings, Simon
Dyspraxic Fundamentalist,
Must I understand completely every detail of the doctrines of salvation to saved? Can I believe that My sin was imputed to God the Son and His righteousness to me because of His death and resurrection...and grow from there?
By your definition the entire Baptist Union of Russia is going to hell. But I know by their lives they are truly saved.
"By your love they will know you are saved." "By your fruits they will know you are saved." Not by your understanding of eternal security.
Just because someone doesn't understand eternal security, that lack of understanding doesn't remove their names from the Lamb's Book of Life.
It is Jesus Christ that justifies us, and it is because we are united to Him by faith alone that 'correct doctrine' cannot be added as some sort of 'work' to saving faith. It is precisely because justification by faith alone is true, that some Roman Catholics are indeed saved, and that many, many of the church fathers are indeed saved despite the doctrine not having been formally stated until the reformation, and despite the fact that even the most orthodox of them seem to speak of baptism as regenerating!
Here is a quote from Lewis' Miracles -- his hopes for eternal life was in Christ's vicarious death.
"...The sentence that those who ate of the forbidden fruit would be driven away from the Tree of life was implicit in the composite nature with which Man was created. But to convert this penal death into the means of eternal life-- to add to its negative and preventive function a positive and saving function-- it was further necessary that death would be accepted... But only a Man who did not need to have been a Man at all unless He had chosen, only one who served in our sad regiment as a volunteer, yet also only one who was perfectly a Man, could perform this perfect dying; and thus, (which way you put it is unimportant) either defeat death or redeem it. He tasted death on behalf of all others... Because Vicariousness is the very idiom of the reality He has created, His death can become ours."
Two thoughts:
1.)"For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom. 10:13 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household. Then they spoke the Word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house" Acts 16:31-32
2.) "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me on that Day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not preached in your name, cast out devils in your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'" Matt. 7:21-22
All of Scripture needs to be read, studied, and listened to, in order to understand. The truth is all of God's Word.
Amen on those verses, donsands.
I'm reading and reading, and absorbing and absorbing.
And I am learning all the while.
I spent about 55 years believing in Christ, but until I surrended myself to Him as my Lord and Saviour, I do not believe I was a Christian.
The Holy Spirit convicted me until I gave in to the Lordship of Jesus and I must say it has made a tremendous life for me in Christ.
I am now 80.
Thank you for this excellent post.
Much love,
Betty G
Simon
John 20:31
"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
The 'Son of God' has a number if different meanings. In the context here Christ's role as the Son of God is 'provider of eternal life.'
What is presented in that verse is the necessity of believing in Jesus for the thing which is offered.
This is made clear in jesus' discourse to Martha in John 11.
25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."
The ultimate question in salvation is whether one has affirmed this proposition that Jesus grants eternal life. This means affirming that the one who believes will never die. To hold to the possibility of spiritual death after believing is a denial of this truth.
"1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life"
The things John refers to here, in the preceding verse are a repetition of the doctrine of eternal life given in his Gospel.
By believing on Jesus one has the thing that one believes on Him for, which is eternal life.
Romans is certainly very important to any discussion of the subject. However, John's Gospel has more to say about eternal life than any other New Testament book. Therefore is has priority in determining how we appropriate eternal life.
No Fluff Required
"Must I understand completely every detail of the doctrines of salvation to saved?"
No. You could be ignorant of the deity of Christ and of his atonement and almost every Christian doctrine.
You must believe in Jesus for eternal life.
"By your definition the entire Baptist Union of Russia is going to hell."
Not necessarilly. Often when people are converted they know that they are going to heaven. Only later are they taught that they might loose their salvation.
"Just because someone doesn't understand eternal security, that lack of understanding doesn't remove their names from the Lamb's Book of Life."
What is the difference between not understanding and not believing?
If I do not understand God and therefore do not believe in Him, I am an unbeliever.
I might not understand how Christ gave me eternal life through the atonement and justification, but if I take His word for it, I believe in faith.
"By your fruits they will know you are saved."
What verse are you quoting and in what translation?
Boopchile
"I spent about 55 years believing in Christ, but until I surrended myself to Him as my Lord and Saviour, I do not believe I was a Christian."
If you believed in Jesus Christ for eternal life you would have received it.
John 3
36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him"
The ultimate question is not whether you have surrendered your life to Christ, but whether you believe on Him for what he offers to you.
We are not saved by works of submission to Christ and by our obediance but by our trust in Him for His gift of eternal life.
God Bless
Matthew
HZ
"It is Jesus Christ that justifies us, and it is because we are united to Him by faith alone that 'correct doctrine' cannot be added as some sort of 'work' to saving faith."
Believing is not a work. Belieiving in Christ for eternal life is simply the appropriation of what Christ has done. It is receiving.
If a person believes that he is not saved until he is baptized, he he has never really believed Christ's offer of eternal life. He has denied the sufficency of what Christ has done.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
We must be careful when it comes to assurance. It is possible to lose one's assurance through depression or error and yet still be a Christian. Or, put in question form, is it possible to doubt one's salvation and yet be saved?
Hiaeth, I agree that assurance can be lost. A person who has believed the true Gospel may come to believe a false gospel.
However, nobody has truly trusted in Christ for eternal life who has not had assurance at their conversion.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Libbie:
Should we take this fight outside?
Dyspraxic Fundamentalist
(Thanks for the accountability on my sloppy quotations.)
I think you are overstating things. Many a true believer in Christ has doubted their salvation.
It is necessary to understand and believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ if one is to be saved. Otherwise, what are you saved from?
The eternal life part of it is all over the place in scripture and should be believed, absolutely.
However, I am hesitant to say that a person, claiming to be in Christ, who demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit of God living in them (Gal. 5) and the love of God (John 13:35) but doubts their salvation sometimes, never was saved.
That seems to be delving into deep places. What if there is one we discard, whom God Himself has on His list of loved ones. I don't want to be so quick to label one as belonging to Satan who truly is God's....
Please feel free to continue the discussion. I'm kind of hoping the comment count will exceed my previous record, which was on a post about a crummy 'worship' song. I'm hoping that people can be stimulated enough about the gospel itself to crank up a new record, instead of getting their knickers in a twist about me being mean to David Ruis ;-)
No Fluff
"Many a true believer in Christ has doubted their salvation."
I agree. However, if there was always doubt there was never faith. You cannot have faith and doubt at the same time. I either believe something or I do not.
Like I said, a person may believe that he has eternal life and then come to believe that he may lose it. I am sure a lot of Russian Baptists come into that category (along with many Calvinists who also doubt their salvation for slightly different reasons).
"It is necessary to understand and believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ if one is to be saved."
That is making understanding the condition of salvation. A person needs to believe in the results of Christ's work, rather than understand the process of how Christ accomplished redemption. That is not to say that preaching the cross is not fundamentally important. Understanding the severity of sin is deeply important.
"Otherwise, what are you saved from?"
Death. Eternal death, that is. A person may be ignorant of sin but she may certainly be concerned about where she is going after death. If she places her trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life, she will be saved, even if she be ignorant of the reality of sin.
"That seems to be delving into deep places. What if there is one we discard, whom God Himself has on His list of loved ones. I don't want to be so quick to label one as belonging to Satan who truly is God's.... "
A valid concern. But if you are uncertain of whether a person is truly redeemed, it is vital that they come to know the true Gospel.
And even if they are saved, yet have come to believe a different gospel, they are in danger of having a very messed up Christian walk. Hence Paul's concern in Galatians.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Knicker-twisting over bad lyrics can stock a comment section indeed. The Gospel: Now that is a worthy discussion
:)
"I agree. However, if there was always doubt there was never faith. You cannot have faith and doubt at the same time. I either believe something or I do not."
Yes! And Doubting God is sin.
"That is making understanding the condition of salvation. A person needs to believe in the results of Christ's work, rather than understand the process of how Christ accomplished redemption."
Of course understanding is a condition of salvation:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ."
You must understand and believe. God came, the Word of God, God the Son, in human flesh, to explain Him to us, so we could understand and believe. I do not place faith in the result. I believe the result (eternal life) will happen because of my faith in the One who is able to accomplish it.
"We are saved from death, yes and this fits with believing we have eternal life in Christ, but..."
Ultimately we are saved from the Wrath of God (which just happens by Divine decree to be death). One must understand that their sin is no longer theirs but was laid upon Christ and that is why God's wrath will not be poured out on the believer.
"A valid concern. But if you are uncertain of whether a person is truly redeemed, it is vital that they come to know the true Gospel.
And even if they are saved, yet have come to believe a different gospel, they are in danger of having a very messed up Christian walk. Hence Paul's concern in Galatians."
Yes!Yes! So you are just concerned for the lost....and not judging them. I see that now.
Truly, Eternal life is great and is the sure future of the true believer. But I am saved unto a person not unto "eternal life" My eternal life only holds value because I can spend it with Him. The central focus of the gospel is Him, and who He is and what He has done and that now I, the undeserving can be loved by Him and not hated by Him. I do not place my faith in my understanding, for He has opened my eyes. I do not place my faith in eternal life, for that is only a gift from Him. I place my Faith in Him......the author and perfector of my faith.
Blessings,
amy
Matthew, I would agree with you that believing is not a work. If it were, we could never do it 'perfectly' enough to 'earn' salvation. This is precisely why I believe that those who are fuzzy on certain doctrines, like baptismal regeneration, can still believe. It is the person of Jesus Christ they are united to by faith. Not a set of propositions or a doctrinal system that was not even clearly stated until after the reformation. The correctness of that doctrinal system allows for their fuzziness: it is Christ, not faith, that saves us. Faith is the 'alone instrument' -- not faith plus doctrinal lucidity on the reformed confessions.
Below is a quote from Augustine with which I strongly disagree, but I do not for that reason believe Augustine to be in hell. In fact I consider that he is one of the assembly and church of firstborn that I approach, in approaching the Mediator of the New Covenant.
I would point out to all of us, that it is the Lord who judges on the last day. Certainly we are to exercise discernment. But for those who have confessed Christ's death as their hope of salvation, who have given a credible profession with their lives, we are also to exercise charity. Mental clarity and consistency is not a prerequisite for salvation.
Thank you, Matthew, for your response.
"Those who say that infancy has nothing in it for Jesus to save, are denying that Christ is Jesus for all believing infants. Those, I repeat, who say that infancy has nothing in it for Jesus to save, are saying nothing else than that for believing infants, infants that is who have been baptized in Christ, Christ the Lord is not Jesus."
Saint Augustine, The Works of Saint Augustine, trans. Edmund Hill, ed. John E. Rotelle, 11 vols. Part III-Sermons. (New Rochelle, New York: New City Press, 1992), 5:261.
(Regarding doubt, I would just briefly point out the assurance of faith is not necessary to saving faith: this was the position of Johnathan Edwards. There is an excellent pamphlet online called 'Not Faith, but Christ' by Horatius Bonar that bears on this as well. And of course one of my favorite quotes from John Bunyan, "I was bound, but He was free. Yea,
'twas my duty to stand to His word whether He would ever look on me
or no, or save me at the last. If God doth not come in, thought I,
I will leap off the ladder even blindfold into Eternity, sink or
swim, come heaven, come hell. Lord Jesus, if Thou wilt catch me,
do. If not, I will venture for Thy name." There is doubt and faith for you.)
(eeh- I'm sorry to post three times in a row, but won't be able to keep up with the discussion for the rest of the day. And I wanted to point this out as well, from Scripture:
Galatians 2:11-21
"11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Peter obviously had confused 'justification by faith alone': that is the issue Paul turns the whole question on. Yet he was united to Christ by faith before this time, as Christ told him back in Luke 22 that He had prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail.
Thanks for your forbearance, bowing out now....
No Fluff
"You must understand and believe. God came, the Word of God, God the Son, in human flesh, to explain Him to us, so we could understand and believe. I do not place faith in the result. I believe the result (eternal life) will happen because of my faith in the One who is able to accomplish it."
We believe in Christ for eternal life, not in His means of providing it. Nowhere are we told to believe in the atonement, we are told to believe in Christ for eternal life.
"One must understand that their sin is no longer theirs but was laid upon Christ and that is why God's wrath will not be poured out on the believer."
Why? Where does the Bible say that is a condition of eternal life?
"But I am saved unto a person not unto "eternal life" My eternal life only holds value because I can spend it with Him."
This is very true. However, we enter this relationship by receiving the gift of eternal life. It is only when we have life that we can have any relationship with Christ.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
HZ
"This is precisely why I believe that those who are fuzzy on certain doctrines, like baptismal regeneration, can still believe. It is the person of Jesus Christ they are united to by faith."
Unfortunately this is not the case.
If believing facts about Christ was the faith that saves, the Bible would give us some list of propositions about Christ that must be believed. It does not. Rather we believe for eternal life.
Faith is technically not a condition of salvation. It is the appropriation of the gift itself.
It is not something we do in place of works, but simply the receiving of what Christ has provided.
John 4
13 "Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
What we receive by faith is eternal life.
John 11
25 "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."
Here we have the simplest explanation of what saving faith is. It is the affirmation that if we believe in Jesus Christ, we will never die.
This is the litmus test of faith.
The person who holds to Baptismal Regeneration does not believe this.
She says in her heart:
"Christ is the resurrection and the life, but I will die if I do not get baptized."
This is not believing in Christ.
The Wesleyan says:
"Christ is the resurrection and the life, but if I do not carry on with the Christian life, I will go to hell."
Again this is unbelief.
The Calvinist often says
"Christ is the resurrection and the life, but if my believing turns out to be false, intellectual faith, I will go to hell."
Saving faith is simply taking Christ for His word in giving eternal life to those who believe.
"Mental clarity and consistency is not a prerequisite for salvation."
Indeed, hence all manner of heretics may be saved. However, faith in what Christ offers is necessary to appropriate salvation.
"Peter obviously had confused 'justification by faith alone': that is the issue Paul turns the whole question on. Yet he was united to Christ by faith before this time, as Christ told him back in Luke 22 that He had prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail."
Actually, Paul does not say that Peter denied the doctrine. Rather, his conduct in withdrawing from Gentiles was not consistent with the doctrine.
In any case even if he had, it proves nothing. A man may believe the Gospel and come to reject it.
The teaching of some Puritans and Calvinists that there must be assurance of salvation througout the Christian life is actually a denial of the very truth of the Gospel. If one tastes of the water just once, one shall never thirst again.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
I would equally note that it is possible for a person to receive salvation and assurance to come later.
Or does that mean they weren't truly converted the first time? I know many people who can identify two possible moments when they might have been saved, one accompanied by assurance, the other, earlier one, not.
Pastor gave a talk on this a while back. He indicated that he believed it was possible to be saved but without assurance.
I was saved, but without assurrance for a little while.I knew that assurrance after specifically praying about it having heard a sermon on 'Doubting Thomas' and the 'right to believe'..
Our faith must be in Christ. His work on the cross paid the price for our sins. We must believe that He hung there for us, and that His atonement was sufficient.We need to understand this and with faith seek forgiveness and ask to be made acceptable in His sight. Believers are clothed in the righteousness of the Lamb.Putting our faith and trust in Christ is not a work, it is obedience. It is something we would never do if it were not for the work of the Holy Spirit.
Dyspraxic Fundamentalist
It is funny to me that you camp so long on "we believe for eternal life" issue.
Why is this the central focus of your belief in Christ?
Why are you so stuck on that?
Christ death and burial and resurrection and ascension are all parts of his atoning work.
Our death to sin, our new life (eternal) in Christ are so intertwined in Scripture and are equally important....
It seems so funny to me that this one point of a many-faceted Gospel has stirred someone up to this extreme.
Especially someone who usually keeps his comments so elequently concise.....
What gives Disprax?
Can I call you Disprax?
Mr. Disprax,
You simplify it, and then you complicate it again, and you are making my brain hurt!
You believe it is faith in Christ alone that saves someone? Yes?
But you also believe that one needn't understand what Christ did they need only believe that He gives eternal life? yes?
There are so many people who think they have been given eternal life by Christ and their life doesn't produce one ounce of fruit to prove that the Spirit of God indwells them. Are they saved simply because they believe Christ will give them eternal life?
Owwwwwwwwww......my BRAIN!
One more thing... the only time I got over 40 comments was when Challies linked me in his a-la-carte. One for a TBN video, one called "Divorcing Your Adopted Child" and another one that was an "application for permission to court my daughter."
You go Girl!!! You have obviously written something that needed to be said. I love your writing style. "Classic Libbie: full of grace and insight with just the right amount of sarcasm."
Some things I cannot agree with in these posts.
I repeat, for 55 years, my first 55, I believed in Jesus and all He taught.
BUT it was all head knowledge, I knew the Bible quite well and my family was quite religious Presbyterians.
BUT until the Holy Spirit, and I did not know the Holy Spirit, convicted me of a bitterness, I do not believe I was a Christian. Jesus would tell me He never knew me I am sure.
BUT I did surrender myself to Jesus and asked Him to take over my life completely and since then He has been Lord of my life and I am so thankful to Him for my latter years.
Like I said, I am 80.
Much love, Betty G
"When anyone hears the Word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, the devil takes that which was sown in the heart. ... some hear the Word and immediately receive it with joy; ... but endures only for a while. ... some hear the Word and riches and cares choke the Word, and he is unfruitful.
But ... he who hears the Word and understands, indeed bears fruit." Matt 13:18-23
The Lord Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. And the fruit of the genuine believer is from a heart that is "cleansed with the washing of the water of the Word".
The true believer loves the truth. His Word is truth.
Hiareth,
"I would equally note that it is possible for a person to receive salvation and assurance to come later."
How can a person have trusted Christ if they are not sure they that He has given them eternal life?
No Fluff,
Call me what you please.
The key issue is how the Bible tells us to be saved. The only book of the Bible written for evangelism is John's Gospel. It explains the content and nature of saving faith.
We are not told that eternal life comes through believing in the cross, or acknowledging sin. No, it comes simply through trust in the name of Jesus for eternal life.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
No Fluff
"There are so many people who think they have been given eternal life by Christ and their life doesn't produce one ounce of fruit to prove that the Spirit of God indwells them. Are they saved simply because they believe Christ will give them eternal life?"
Yes. Eternal life is a gift. There are no strings or conditions attached.
Boopchile,
We are saved by our belief in Christ for what He has done. The Bible never distingguishes this from head knowledge.
The Biblical 'heart' is the same as what we often refer to as the 'head.'
Donsands
"some hear the Word and immediately receive it with joy; ... but endures only for a while. ... "
What makes you think those who do not endure are lost?
Woah there Matthew. Are you saying that a person does not need to ask forgiveness for their sins to be saved? That is shakey ground! We do have to trust in Christ for eternal life, but that is not the primary conviction for turning to Him. God very graciously shows us the sinful state of our hearts, our rebellion against Him and the fact that we cannot have eternal life with Him without true repentance and forgiveness for our sins.Therefore we have to come to the cross of Christ, fully trusting that His work there was sufficient for the forgiveness of our sins, making us acceptable in the sight of almighty God. If we think we will have eternal life in heaven but miss out the whole 'repentance' part then there is something wrong!
I, like Boopchile, 'believed' for a long time (16 years). I had head knowledge. I knew God was real. I knew the bible was true. I knew I needed a Saviour. It did not save me. I knew Christ gave eternal life to those who trusted in Him for salvation. That did not save me. Head knowledge IS NOT the same as saving faith!
'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins'. There is no gain in knowing about confessing sin if you don't do it!
What a debate!
We are not told that eternal life comes through believing in the cross, or acknowledging sin. No, it comes simply through trust in the name of Jesus...
This is what scripture teaches!
for eternal life. is an addition not required by scripture.
disprax,
Yes. Eternal life is a gift. There are no strings or conditions attached.
It is a gift, yes, we are saved by faith in Christ. But there should be no assurance of that one's salvation if they do not demonstrate fruit. Faith without works is dead. Works prove that the faith is true!
Someone who thinks they have been granted eternal life in Christ, but lives a godless life, should not feel assured or believe they belong to Him.
Disprax-o-rama:
You said I may call you what I please,
All you are saying is that someone can be saved by believing that Christ is the only one who offers eternal life? yes?
To this I would say: ok, but it must go much deeper and much further as they grow in Him and the proof will be in their growth in sanctification.
You are not saying that JUST because someone SAYS they believe Christ offers eternal life that they are truly saved? Yes?
"The key issue is how the Bible tells us to be saved. The only book of the Bible written for evangelism is John's Gospel. It explains the content and nature of saving faith."
I am fainting with disagreement!
The whole of Scripture points to Christ. The whole of scripture, when understood becomes a beautiful portrait of salvation.
I can understand you better now. I know why you see it the way you do.
The Law showed us the holiness of God and the necessity of death to sin.
The lambs of old shows us the need for a blood sacrifice
Christ's obedience to the Father shows us our need for obedience to Him
The snake held up in the wilderness to the dying shows us our need to look only to Christ.
Every Epistle brightens the clarity of the Christian Life, which is to be the city on the hill.
So many more examples....
To put our faith in Christ is to put our faith in all of who he is and what he has done for us....not just Eternal Life.
Matthew,
Hebrews 6. 2 Peter 2. 1 John 2.
Susanna,
"Are you saying that a person does not need to ask forgiveness for their sins to be saved?"
Yes.
Nowhere does the Bible make eternal life conditional upon asking for forgiveness. It tells man to believe on the Son.
"I had head knowledge. I knew God was real. I knew the bible was true. I knew I needed a Saviour. It did not save me."
'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life.'
Is this true or is it not true? Or is there some small print.
To maintain that belief in Christ for what He offers will not save is unbelief.
"That did not save me. Head knowledge IS NOT the same as saving faith!"
Where does the Bible say this?
'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins'.
This is a passage that deals with the Christian life.
You surely confess your sins, despite being a justifed sinner.
The reason we must confess our sins is becuase there are temporal consequences for sin. If we sin, we are liable to face chastisement and we cannot know the fulness of God's blessings.
God Bless
Matthew
"We are not told that eternal life comes through believing in the cross, or acknowledging sin. No, it comes simply through trust in the name of Jesus...
This is what scripture teaches!
for eternal life. is an addition not required by scripture."
Simon. what is it one must trust Jesus for? Trust Him for a happy life? Entrance into the Church? A Jaguar car?
We must trust in Christ for His gift of eternal life.
The content of saving faith is clearly explained in John 11, in our Lord's discourse to Martha.
God Bless
Matthew
Matthew
Let me just get this really straight. You do not believe that repantance of sin is necessary for salvation?
If Christ did not need to forgive our sins in order for us to inherit eternal life then what was the point of the cross??
I have to admit to being a bit gob-smacked right now. But I'll be back...........
P.S- Libbie....hope the comment count is going well!
No Fluff
"But there should be no assurance of that one's salvation if they do not demonstrate fruit."
Is fruit something inevitable in the Christian life?
Galatians 5 reveals that producing fruit depends upon walking in the Spirit. If we walk in the flesh, we will not produce fruit and we will end up performing the works of the flesh:
Galatians 5
16: "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26: Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."
"Faith without works is dead. Works prove that the faith is true!"
What do you think James means when he says faith without works is dead? Is James actually talking about eternal life or some other issues? I would urge you to study that verse within the context of the whole epistle. James deals with various issues in the Christian life, such as prayer, trial and chastening because of sin. His point is that faith without works is useless in the Christian life.
It is vital to bear in mind that James knows that his readers are born-again (James 1:18). Therefore, the faith without works that he speaks of is a genuine faith of a true believer. It is the inadequate faith of somebody who has already trusted in Christ for eternal life.
"You are not saying that JUST because someone SAYS they believe Christ offers eternal life that they are truly saved? Yes?"
Obviously, saying one believes does not save. There are no doubt some who pretend to believe in order to fit in with the Christian community.
However, a simple trust in Jesus Christ will save regardless of one's conduct after believing.
There are consequences for those who do not produce fruit, but they will be saved, as though by fire (1 Cor 3:15). If we are not faithful, we will suffer temporal judgment through suffering and we would face loss of status and reward in heaven.
"The whole of Scripture points to Christ. The whole of scripture, when understood becomes a beautiful portrait of salvation."
I agree. However, each book of the Bible was written for a specific person.
Can you name another book of the Bible which is written with the specific purpose of showing one how to receive eternal life?
This is the explicit purpose of John's Gospel:
John 20
30: "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
"To put our faith in Christ is to put our faith in all of who he is and what he has done for us....not just Eternal Life."
Certainly, a deeper faith in Christ will include everything which He has done.
However, you yourself have already argued that one does not need to have a complete understanding of what Christ has done to be saved.
Hence, you argued that belief in eternal security was not necessary.
The question is, what exactly does one need to believe to be receive eternal life?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Susannah
"Let me just get this really straight. You do not believe that repantance of sin is necessary for salvation?"
Yes.
"If Christ did not need to forgive our sins in order for us to inherit eternal life then what was the point of the cross??"
When did I say that Christ did not need to forgive us our sins in order to give us eternal life.
Christ's death and resurrection defeated death and satisfied the wrath of God enabling the believer to receive a rightous standing before God and to receive eternal life.
Obvioulsy the forgiveness that is referred to in 1 John 1:9 is a different kind of forgiveness, as the justified sinner is saved from teh eternal consequences of hell.
Or do you think that a believer will go to hell if she does not confess her sins daily?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Thankyou, Donsands.
Hebrews 6
4: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7: For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."
I presume you think that those that fall away here are unbelievers?
However, it is very difficult to see how it could be said that unbelievers could have been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift.
Do you not believe that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God, neither can he know them?
This passage refers to the judgment of God upon unfaithful Christians.
If a Christian falls away he is in danger of chastening. If he continues in that course and is not restored by the (impossible- with man) grace of God, he will suffer physical death.
At the judgment seat of Christ, the apostate will be rebuked and suffer loss of privilege and status.
The reference to fire should not be taken as a reference to hell. The Bible often makes metaphorical use of fire. This is clearly used in the case of a believer in 1 Cor 3:15.
2 Peter 2.
20: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
So you think a depraved sinner can escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Saviour?
This passage makes no mention of hell.
If a believer falls into a state of moral ruin, in terms of his temporal state, he is far more wretched than he was before his conversion, because the terrible sense of shame and guilt he will be under. Such a man is in a most contemptible position indeed.
1 John 2
11: "But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12: I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. "
The Bible never speaks of an unbeliever as a brother to other believers. The wicked person here is a true child of God.
This in fact demonstrates that a believer can wallk in darkness.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew
If I believed that then I would be on the high way to hell. (daily sin confession). I am full of flaws and keeping a short account with God is one of them.
I cannot agree with what you are saying....but do not currently have the time to address it.Maybe I will open this theme up for discussion on my blog and see what comes out of it.....If Libbie doesn't mind me linking........
"UNCLE!!!!!!"
You did catch me in an inconsistancy with all that I said one must believe to be saved.
suffice it to say, I believe that one must believe more than just
"Christ will let me live forever, so I believe in Him."
I don't believe that is the complete Gospel.
When I share with others, I try to make it clear that we are enemies of God apart from His Son taking our place. I speak of Christ, crucified, buried and risen again. And He offers eternal life in exchange for the death that our sinful nature has earned us.
Repentance is necessary. Baptism is commanded but does not save.
Do you think the Lord will tell me I have been too loquacious?
No Fluff
"suffice it to say, I believe that one must believe more than just
"Christ will let me live forever, so I believe in Him.""
What does the Bible say is the minimum one needs to believe in order to receive eternal life?
"When I share with others, I try to make it clear that we are enemies of God apart from His Son taking our place. I speak of Christ, crucified, buried and risen again. And He offers eternal life in exchange for the death that our sinful nature has earned us."
When I preach on the streets, I tell people the same.
"Repentance is necessary. Baptism is commanded but does not save."
Why is repentance necessary, but not baptism?
Where do you get the idea that repentance is essential to receiving eternal life?
Repentance is a vital part of the Christian walk.
Everyone is commanded to repent and there are serious consequences for failing to repent.
Also, repentance prior to conversion can lead a person to see their need for eternal life when they encounter the Gospel message. For an historic example, we have Luther who experienced repentance before he came to see the ground of justification in Christ by faith.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew, I'll be honest, I'm a little confused.
How does one come to the place where one acknowledges the need to trust Christ for eternal life?
Is it not a logical follow-through of seeing one's position before God? Would repentance then, not be a 'condition' added to saving faith, but a natural precursor to trusting Christ for eternal life?
Thanks everyone for gracing my blog with this comment-thread.
Repentance is not merely an acknowledgment of sin and judgment, Libbie. It is a complete and sincere turning from sin that involves a change of conduct.
Repentance and conviction of sin certainly can be a precursor to believing, as I said above.
However, the Bible nowhere indicates that this is the only route to faith.
There are other things that may lead a person to faith in Christ other than conviction of sin:
- a believing husband or wife.
- the testimony of Scripture to the power and authority of Christ and of His resurrection.
- the behaviour of Christians.
If we take the Scriptural example of the Samritan woman, there is no evidence in her of conviction of sin or repentance. In fact Jesus does not even emphasise the sins that make her justification a necessity.
Rather, Jesus shows to her His power and authority and then she takes Him at His word when He offers life.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
AH. Did I miss something?
Matthew,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made MANIFEST, that none of them were of us". 1 John 2:!8-19
These were not manifest as non-belivers, until they left. Much like Judas.
Speaking of Judas, it seems he may represent Hebrews 6. At least he surely does to me.
"And when He called His 12 disciples to Him, He gave THEM power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.
Now the names of the 12 apostles are these: ... and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him". Matt. 10:1-4
Judas surely tasted the heavenly gifts. And yet he was dead in his sins. He was even called a devil by our Lord.
Also: "For whoever has, to him more will be given ... but whoever does not have, even what he HAS will be taken away from him". Matt. 13:12
Also: "I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you--UNLESS you believed in vain". 1 Cor. 15:1-2
So Matthew, i do disagree with you. And yet you make a good arguement, though I cannot interpret the Word your way.
In His grace and joy. Don
I think it is relevant that regeneration precedes faith. Faith and repentance are the response of a will that has been freed to seek God. It is not a perfect response (we are not made perfect, even in our thoughts about justification, in regeneration). And it is a response to a Person. So a three year old child can accept Christ, though they probably understand very little about justification by faith alone in all its implications. They might still feel when they do something wrong that they have lost their salvation and need to be taught differently. This does not mean they were never saved: that would be to make believing to be a work that has to be done just right: which would make faith a grounds, rather than an instrument, and an initation, rather than a response. Whereas the fact of our being regenerated, and responding out of that newness, makes it very possible for a little child, or a mentally ill person, or a person with alzheimer's etc. to repent and believe and have an intimate relationship with a Personal God without perfect mental clarity as to how it is taking place (or what 'eternal life' is). They are essentially responding; their response is necessary, but it is not necessary that it be perfect.
Matthew, but Peter was teaching that they had to add the works of the law to their faith as a matter of standing. I could argue about anyone that they only taught such and such a thing because they were acting inconsistently. Christ prayed for Peter's faith, therefore it was a true faith, and true faith perseveres. Not the least because, Christ is praying for it.
Baptism is necessary for obedience, but it does not save.
Jonathan Hunt:
Come on in!
HZ: I liked this point.
"They might still feel when they do something wrong that they have lost their salvation and need to be taught differently. This does not mean they were never saved:
Funda-rama:
Why don't we all just get a pizza?
You're saved, I'm saved. Jonathan just got here...
The finer points of the timing of other people's salvation is resting securely in the hands of the One who knows every heart.
I need to get a life now.
See you tomorrow everyone...
Matthew,
Thanks for the lively debate and all your great points....
In sincerity (not insincerity)
....you know what I mean.....
blessings,
AD
You know what? I have to agree with fluff. Libbies pretty much summed up my thoughts in her comments and although I may not agree with all that has been said here I can no longer see the benefit of prolonged debate.
I'm off to live my life!
Toodles!
Donsands,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made MANIFEST, that none of them were of us". 1 John 2:!8-19"
This refers to individuals who had been involved with the apostles' work, but who later turned out to be false teachers.
Their departure from the apostles' company is taken as a sign that they had their own agenda.
It is not John's intention to inform us of whether or not they were truly saved. They may or may not have been unbelievers.
"Speaking of Judas, it seems he may represent Hebrews 6. At least he surely does to me.
"And when He called His 12 disciples to Him, He gave THEM power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.
Now the names of the 12 apostles are these: ... and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him". Matt. 10:1-4"
I agree that Judas did miracles by the Holy Ghost. Certainly, he tasted the heavenly gift.
Whether individuals after our Lord's ascension can perform works by the Holy Ghost is not certain, 1 Cor 13 suggests this possiblity.
However, it is very unlikely that the apostle would refer to false professors as having the heavenly gift, even if some might. It certainly suggests believers rather than unbelievers.
In what sense are they enlightened? Would this not mean reeceiving the things of the Spirit of God, which natural men cannot do?
What is the evidence in that passage that unbelievers are in view?
"Also: "For whoever has, to him more will be given ... but whoever does not have, even what he HAS will be taken away from him". Matt. 13:12"
This is not talking about hell, but loss of rewards and opportunity for service.
Those believers who are unfaithful will not only lose any rewards they might have earned, but they will be denied a share in Christ's rule and therefore the opportunity to serve in the Millennium and beyond.
"Also: "I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you--UNLESS you believed in vain". 1 Cor. 15:1-2"
Saved means a number of different things in the Bible. It includes sanctification and deliverance from trial and calamity.
Believers have already received eternal life, so in that sense they are saved. However, their full salvation in other senses has yet to be realised.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
HZ
"They are essentially responding; their response is necessary, but it is not necessary that it be perfect."
What is the minimum response that is essential to salvation and where do you find it in Scripture?
Galatians 2
11 ¶ "But when Peter was come to An'ti-och, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
Where in this passage does it say that Peter taught that eternal life was received through the law?
Peter's error was in not eating with Gentiles for a time, which was inconsistent with the doctrine that he believed.
"Christ prayed for Peter's faith, therefore it was a true faith, and true faith perseveres."
Where does the Bible say that true faith perserveres? Do you consider Peter's denial of Christ to be perserverance?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord" Acts 3:19
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
"...but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." Acts 26:20
"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15
"Repent; repent, for your sins shall be pardoned upon your repentance. It is still as necessary to repent and humble ourselves, to prepare the way of the Lord, as it then was. There is a great deal to be done, to make way for Christ into a soul, and nothing is more needful than the discovery of sin, and a conviction that we cannot be saved by our own righteousness... Those only are ready to receive Jesus Christ as their righteousness, who are brought with sorrow and shame to own their guilt."--MH
4 Given, repentance is vitally important in the Christian life, as is baptism. It is obediance to the Lord and enables us to grow as disciples of our Lord.
However, like baptism, repentance does not provide eternal life. Rather, faith in Christ receives eternal life.
God Bless
Matthew
Matthew,
You make some points to be pondered.
However, your thoughts on 1 Cor. 15: 1-2 are weak and forced, in my way of thinking.
Have a blessed lord's Day. To God be all glory. Amen.
Don
Matthew,
Sorry for the delay. Was busy (or something). In answer to your question, the doubts tend to be related to a besetting sin. While trusting Jesus, the person who has problems with assurance does not trust themselves.
It is an error, I'd agree. The reference, however, is to an early stage in which doubt and trust co-exist in the mind. Full assurance, the sealing of the spirit, does not necessarily come at the time of conversion in my experience.
But I may be wrong. By the way, old chap, what's your opinion of the 'Carnal Christian' doctrine? Because, silly me, some of the stuff you've said seems to me to come close to it.
Donsands
Some commentators argue that to be believe in vain is to believe in the event of Christ not having been raised; a useless form of belief.
Does our receiving life eternal depend upon our perservarance?
In which case, can you be sure that you have not believed in vain?
You have a blessed Lord's day too
Matthew
Hiareth, yes a Christian can be carnal and remain in that state. I think that is a clear Scriptural teaching.
Remaining carnal is not, however, a valid option for believers. There are temporal and eternal cosnequences for a believer who does not move from a state of carnality.
God Bless
Matthew
Hiareth
"While trusting Jesus, the person who has problems with assurance does not trust themselves."
Such a person does not trust Jesus at all. If she does not trust Jesus to give her the life he offers, she does not trust Him. That is unbelief.
God Bless
Matthew
Equally, Matthew, I'm afraid that your comments on the nature of saving faith steer very close to Sandemanianism, the belief that a mere intellectual assent to the truths contained in scripture, rather than a real trust in Christ, an emotional as well as intellectual response.
It is possible for a person to be brought up in a church, trust their own upbringing and believe in God all their lives, yet not have personally trusted in Christ. This is the faith of the devils. They have orthodox belief, for they see the truth, but without saving faith, for they will not submit to the Lord Jesus Christ.
I think I'll put a series on Christmas Evans on Free St. George's soon.
Hiareth
The Bible never makes a distinction between intellectual faith and any other kind of faith. This kind of thinking is foreign to the New Testament.
The Biblical term 'heart' was often used in a similar way to the way we use 'head.' The term did not imply emotional attachment, as we would tend to think today.
Likewise the intellect is never looked down upon in the Bible.
We need to have the 'mind of Christ.' We need the 'renewing of our mind.'
In Jesus discourse to Martha, He asks her whether she has affirmed the proposition that He is the resurrection and the life. This is a simple question.
If He had asked her if Abraham came before Moses and she answered yes, we would never trouble ourselves to wonder if she meant it only intellectually.
Belief is belief. There are not different levels of belief. You either believe or you do not believe.
With regard to the faith of devils, James was not making any kind of doctrinal point. James concerns Christian living, not the doctrine of salvation.
James' comment with regard to the faith of devils is merely a sarcastic comment that aided his rhetoric.
It is unhelpful to compare this with faith in Christ because:
1. Christ did not die for devils.
2. This is faith in one God, not Christ.
"They have orthodox belief, for they see the truth, but without saving faith"
What is the difference between faith and belief? The Greek makes not lingustic difference between the two. The difference comes from the English language.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
God, with the same grace with which He saves us, makes us persevere in bearing fruit for His glory, which is the bottom line; His glory and honor. It's His promise to us. (John 15:16)
One last verse for us to consider.
"Therefore, brethern, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". 2 Peter 1:10-11
In His gracious hands.
Matthew,
What I refer to is a mere assent that a thing is true. Not trust, simply belief. I may believe that a bridge is there but refuse to cross it, thus demonstrating a lack of trust. One might say that I believe in the bridge, but I do not have faith in it. With regard to Christianity, one may believe that Jesus existed and was the son of God without throwing oneself on His mercy, believing that he is either not willing or not able.
It seems clear from the context that James is referring to a dead orthodoxy, the sort of sound but useless belief that those of us saved from within the Church held before our conversion.
Lastly, in your opinon, is faith a mere mental assent given once and not accompanied by a moral change?
Cordially in Christ,
Hiraeth
Matthew,
The question was possibly bady phrased. The reference to orthodox belief and saving faith was with reference to the devils. For men, I would prefer mere assent, not belief.
The picture would be of one who sees a bridge, declares that it is there and may be crossed, but does not cross the bridge. That person believes in the bridge, but does not have faith in it.
One may thus assume that the person does not actually trust the bridge for its purpose, whatever they may say. In the church this is a depiction of the churchgoer who believes there is a God, who has sat under the Gospel, but does not see their own personal need of Christ.
Lastly, do you believe that saving faith consists solely in an assent to the truths contained in scripture, and if so, whether that confession remains good even if unaccompanied by the signs of a changed life?
Sorry, thought the first comment had vanished
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He who calls you is faithful, Who also will do it". 1 Thes. 5:23-24
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Donsands
John 15
16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."
The apostles were graciously chosen to establish the Church by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is their fruit which remains.
Is there anything in this verse that proves that a believer must produce fruit?
"Therefore, brethern, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". 2 Peter 1:10-11"
We are called to serve our Lord. We need to make sure that we are serving Him.
This passage actually shows the possibility of stumbling. In which case, the stumbling believer will forfeit the right to share in the kingdom rule of Christ.
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He who calls you is faithful, Who also will do it". 1 Thes. 5:23-24"
Is this talking about progressive sanctification or about the believer's glorification at Christ's coming. Please expalin how you interpret this text.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
"Not trust, simply belief. I may believe that a bridge is there but refuse to cross it, thus demonstrating a lack of trust. One might say that I believe in the bridge, but I do not have faith in it. With regard to Christianity, one may believe that Jesus existed and was the son of God without throwing oneself on His mercy, believing that he is either not willing or not able."
Believing things about Jesus is insufficent, I agree. One must believe that He has received eternal life through Jesus Christ.
If I believe that a bridge will hold my weight, then I trust that bridge. Whether I get on to that bridge is another matter. I may have no reason to want to cross it.
This analogy actually confuses the issue. There is no mediate step between believing and receiving eternal life. If a person beleives on the Son, she has everlasting life.
"It seems clear from the context that James is referring to a dead orthodoxy, the sort of sound but useless belief that those of us saved from within the Church held before our conversion."
What makes you think that?
James is writing to people who were already converted, people who he knew were born-again (James 1:18).
Does the Bible ever refer to a faith that is not genuine faith, which cannot save? Is this really a biblical concept?
"Lastly, do you believe that saving faith consists solely in an assent to the truths contained in scripture"
It is assent to the truth that Jesus provides the one who believes with eternal life (John 11:25-27).
"whether that confession remains good even if unaccompanied by the signs of a changed life?"
Any change is the result of the working of the Holy Spirit throug sanctification.
If a person believes she receives a new nature. However, the old nature remains. If the believer walks in the Spirit, there will be a change in conduct, if she walks in the flesh, she will not be changed and will die physically(1 John 5:16, James 5:20).
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
I believe Paul is speaking of both. Holiness imputed, and a holy life lived.
God "will do it" first and foremost, because it honor's Him, and glorifies His grace, which He purposed before the foundations of the world. He "will do it", because He loves His called children. And He is faithful to keep His promises.
The Lord is faithful to His promises. He takes a callous heart, and makes it tender. This same heart is being conformed into the image of Christ, which God promised to do (Rom. 8:29), in order to do good works (Eph. 2:9), which is infact fruit in a believers life for the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father.
I suppose I see where the Bible says all genuine believers will grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord, as Peter did. If anyone would have not done so, it would have been Peter. But are we any different than he?
Another passage, and then I must go.
"For every tree is known by his own fruit. ... A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." Luke 6:44-45
It's been a delight studying the Scriptures. Thanks for challeging me.
Have a nice day, or night. Don
Matthew and Don,
It has been a delight to watch you guys "converse" on these things.
Again Libbie, good post. Very God-honoring.
Donsands, thanks for the discussion.
I believe the promise of our being glorified is unconditional, but the Lord's purpose for us to be conformed to Him while in the flesh is conditional upon our walking in the Spirit and dying to the flesh.
I believe the Scriptural evidence for the possibility of the moral failure or apostasy of the true believer is overwhelming.
I think with regard to Luke 6, our Lord is not so much speaking of the condition of the regenerate man as revealing the corruption of the natural man.
I hope you have a great afternoon.
4Given, thanks a lot.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
I hate to be the one with one last question, but I can't not ask it. And you need not respond.
Do you feel Esau represents those, who, "it is impossible for them to be renewed again unto repentance", since the writer of Hebrews says:
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; ... as Esau, ... for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Heb. 12:15-17
"Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." Hebrews 13:20-21
Donsands
One last question? Like Lt. Columbo?
Yes. Esau missed out on the promise of blessing and privilege, just as a believer who backslides is in danger of losing the possibility of sharing in Christ's heavenly government.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
I leave for a bit and come back, and Libbie, you have matched Dan Phillips for number of comments!
I'm not a Hindu, but Holy Cow!
That's a lot of people entering into the spirit of things.
just wanted to post with the new pic.
Matthew,
Columbo is one of my heros.
I have to disagree with you about Esau.
But that's another discussion for another blog.
Shalom.
On bridges, I'm glad you agree. Of course, since the Bridge represents Christ and every man has need of trusting the bridge for salvation.
On James. What makes me think that is first of all my experience. I always believed in Christ, always believed in the cross, the Trinity and what have-you. But I did not cross the bridge, it was mere mental assent to a list of things I believed true but had no relevance to me, like the Kings of England or the events of the Spanish Armada.
But then came the day when I did trust in Jesus for Salvation. I crossed the bridge, I looked at the serpent in the wilderness, rather than simply agreeing that it was there.
Hiareth, I am getting confused here.
Believing in the Trinity will not save anyone, I quite agree.
What is the difference between believing that one has eternal life through Jesus Christ and trusting Him for eternal life?
Let us take an analogy. What is the difference between saying:
'I know that the mail will arrive today.'
and
'I trust that the mail will arrive today'?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
The difference between getting one's mail delivered by the Royal Mail and paying a courier to do it for you.
So what is the difference between saying:
"I know that Royal Mail will deliver my mail to tomorrow."
and
"I trust Royal Mail will deliver my mail tomorrow?"
The latter is a pious hope which experience tells you is doubtful.
(still waiting for a parcel)
What in the definition of trust makes it uncertain?
If I trust Royal Mail, I believe that they will deliver my mail. I have faith in them.
I suspect you are confusing the common use of the word trust (in a non-commital sense) with the word's true meaning.
What is the essential difference between trust, knowledge andf belief?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
I am starting to feel like Jeremy Paxman.
Matthew, I don't think Peter preached 'repent and believe the gospel - for eternal life' at pentecost. Nevertheless Peter was teaching that standing (justification issues) had to do with works.
What is the minimum? "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead...."
However those who are miraculously reborn and brought into union with Christ have the content of their faith constantly informed and shaped by His word.
HZ
"Nevertheless Peter was teaching that standing (justification issues) had to do with works."
I am not following the point you are making here.
"What is the minimum? "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead....""
Paul is not talking about justifcation or eternal life. He is talking about salvation, which is a far broader term. Biblically, salvation includes sanctification, delverance from trial and danger, deliverance from temptation and entrance into privilege and blessing.
A person who is justifed by grace and who has eternal life may certainly fail to be saved in every aspect. Thus, the importance of confessing Christ.
Note that Paul always identifies faith as the condition for justifcation, never confession.
This is indicated in verse 10 of that passage:
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So the person receives a righteous standing through faith, but other aspects of his salvation depend upon his confession.
"However those who are miraculously reborn and brought into union with Christ have the content of their faith constantly informed and shaped by His word."
Are you sure? What makes you think that?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
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