La Shawn Barber writes a stirring post about gunpoint conversions and the Christian view on the whole issue. I noticed, repeatedly in the comments, the refrain
"I'd 'convert' to stay alive, but I wouldn't mean it. God will understand"
To which my response is, "Really?"
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not going to stand here (or sit painfully, as I am doing) and proclaim that I will die for Christ. Peter's hubris on that matter is warning enough to stay silent on an issue I do not yet have to face. Still, Peter, when the time came, stood firm in the faith and died for His saviour, by the grace of God.
Many of our brothers and sisters faced a similar situation to a gunpoint conversion to Islam - all they had to do was throw a few grains of incense on the altar to the Roman emperor. They didn't have to 'mean it in their hearts' - but the very act of physically throwing that incense was an acknowledgment of the deity of the Emperor - and thus a denial of their Saviour.
They knew it, the authorities knew it - and that's why they ended up as human torches.
So, you're on your knees and a bearded Muslim holds a gun to your head and demands you recite the shahada, and become muslim - submitted to Allah. Let me remind you what the shahada says -
"I bear witness that there is no deity (none truely to be worshipped) but, Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is the messenger of Allah"
Now, you may at this point, think of all the people you may leave behind if that gun goes off. But let me point out to you that you are considering denying the Lord who bought you for the sake of your children. And I believe that scripture has this to say to that idea..
If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luk 14:26
But hey, God understands, right? And after all, we're not really converting, are we?
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 10:33
This is a hard teaching, that's for sure. But did you really think that 'pick up your cross' just meant to work really hard at not gossiping?
Now, granted, there is always mercy. Peter, already mentioned, is a good case in point. But it is one thing to humbly be silent and not make bold claims about martyrdom. It is quite another, in a place of relative comfort, to plan to disown your Lord by your words, just to stay alive.
If that would be your considered choice in that circumstance, I beg you to examine your heart, and to ask yourself, as Christ asked Peter - Do you really love Him?
8/31/2006
Denying your Lord, but not really meaning it.
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29 comments:
Do you believe that eternal life is conditional upon being willing to be a matyr?
If so, in what sense is it meaningful to say that eternal life is a gift given by grace?
"This is a hard teaching"
Amen to that. But I think the hard teachings are good for the mind and heart to ponder.
Thanks for the great post.
I can say I love the Lord, because He first loved me. And that I hope, by His grace and power, I would never deny Him, even if someone would threaten me with torture and death.
Yeah- a hard teaching.
I can see a hint of "it's conditional" in that post, but I honestly don't think that's how she meant it. However, being willing to deny Him so non-chalantly might bring into question the authenticity of your (or my) so-called "faith". It really is pretty easy to discuss this from in front of my computer, though, with no gun to my head.
Blessings.
Daniel 3:15-18
Matthew, I believe it is important to pay attention to the words of Christ in Luke 14, and to carefully consider the cost of being a disciple.
The bestowing of grace is not conditional upon our obedience - though I certainly believe the Lord chastises His children for disobedience, just as a chastise mine without affecting whether or not they are my children.
I believe it is important to examine ourselves, particularly if we can confidently claim to be willing to sin to save our own lives before we even get to that eventuality.
So no, I do not believe that eternal life is conditional on our willingness to be martyred. But I do believe that we should look at our hearts and hate every vestige of sin still residing there, as a response to that great grace we have been given.
Well I hope eternal life doesn't rely on willingness to be martyred, because I very much hope and pray that I will never come to that point!
On the other hand, if it does come, I also hope and pray for the grace to stand up firmly for Jesus.
Libbie, I think you're basically right all-around.
You're right to say that it's all fine and good to sit in our easy chairs and contemplate what we might do, and/or be tempted to criticize what others did do. We should remember Peter, as you say, and should recall the warning that him who puts on his armor should not boast as him who takes it off.
But you're also right that now is the time to think about it. If we should find ourselves mortally threatened along the line of "Your Lord or your life," that isn't the time to begin mulling over our priorities. The time is now, BEFORE the situation, so that we have the right mindset if and when it occurs.
A lame example. I was once walking through a rough neighborhood with my very attractive daughter, and rough guys were lounging about. I was sort of thinking about scenarios -- and then I realized that I, who've never been in a fight since I was 11 or something, was thinking about it all wrong.
I was thinking of half-measures and attempts and all. I realized that I needed to steel myself with one resolve: that they would get to my daughter literally over my dead body. If the situation arose, protecting her would become the one and single focus of the investment of every last shred of life and effort I had.
It didn't come up, but that realization made a lasting impression on me. It has an application, I think, to what you're talking about.
And Matthew, your line of one-note silliness is what makes it hard to talk sensibly with anyone about Dispensationalism. I wish to God you'd sober up and drop it.
Libbie, thanks for the answer.
I think it is vital to distinguish between believing on Christ for eternal life and becoming a disciple. Many Bible teachers confuse these tow concepts.
We are commanded to become disciples of our Lord, but this is a conscious response that we make that is not an automatic result of believing in Christ.
If a person trusts in Christ for eternal life but neglects to serve our Lord as a disciple, she will not be lost, but she will lose position, reward and privilege in the kingdom.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
DJP, so no reasoning from the Scriptures then?
My position is so self-evidently silly that it is not even worth refuting?
Maybe if I talk like that to Mormons and J.W.s they might see their errors a little more quickly.
God Bless
Matthew
Matthew, I recommend that you read Ernest Reisinger's 'What Should we think of the Carnal Christian?' on the belief that one can accept Christ as Saviour and not as Lord.
Might I ask from where you draw your belief? Where in the Scriptures does one read that one may believe upon Christ for Salvation and not follow Him?
I ask because I wish to know.
On the subject of those who burned insence to idols to avoid persecution, the Donatist schism in North Africa illustrates the difficulty with dealing with the after-effects of such trouble.
Excellent, challenging post, Libbie.
Hiareth
John 12
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
There is no ambiguity in the word 'believed' here. The consistent teaching of John's Gospel is that he that believes on the Son of God has everlasting life.
The idea of different levels of belief is foreign to the Gospel.
Simon of Arimthea seems to be in the same category as the guys mentioned in 12:42. We are told that he feared the Jews and did not confess Christ openly.
Likewise in John 8, those who believe are told by Jesus that they must continue in His word to be His disciples it is an 'if'. Believing does not automatically result in being a disciple.
The Scriptures consistently reveal the possibility of the believer falling into apostasy- Hebrews 2:1-4, 6:4-8, 10:29-31, James 5:19-20 2 Peter 2:20-22.
The New Testament is simply full of warnings of the importance of perservering in the faith and avoiding immorality.
There is absolutely nothing to imply that perserverance is an automatic result of being born-again.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Would you mind if I interjected one thought.
Hebrews 6:4-8.
How if I believe these described persons are not Born-again believers at all.
Suppose I equate them with Judas. Would that be a fair interpretation?
In fact, verse 8 states: "But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to burned."
Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." Matt 7:16-20
There needs to be fruit, some 30, 60 or even 100 fold.
No good fruit, then a no good heart. Good fruit, then a good heart.
God changes the heart from stone to flesh. God prunes and gives the increase to fruition.
He receives all the glory for saving us and for producing fruit in us. His grace and mercy do it all.
He ia way to gracious to us, and He will honor and glorify His name above evry name. Amen.
Matthew 7:16-20 needs to be looked at in context.
Jesus is not talking about fruit for the purpose of assurance or testing salvation. He is talking about how to judge false teachers.
The fruit in question is doctrine, not works.
Notice that the false teachers are wolves in sheep's clothing. They do enougth good works to seem like good guys.
If they did not do good deeds, they would not appear to be sheep.
They themselves will point this out when they are judged. They will point out their good works; their miracles.
To use this passage to insist that believers must do some minimum of good works to prove their salvation is to take it completely out of context.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
"You shall know them by their fruits--not their doctrines--as many of the elder interpreters and some later ones explain it--for that corresponds to the tree itself; but the practical effect of their teaching, which is the proper fruit of the tree." -David Brown
Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. FOR out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."
That's everyone, I would think.
"For EVERY tree is known by its own fruit." (ver. 44)
I suppose it comes down to making ones election and calling sure, and how you do this.
I believe there needs to be fruit, and though you agree fruit should be encouraged, it may in fact not occur.
As I stated earlier, I beleive the same gospel of grace that saves a dead sinner, and quickens him from the dead, also produces fruit in the heart and life of this now new creation of the Lord's grace.
If anyone does not love the Lord, let him be accursed.
What is fruit in the context?
What kind of fruit might we expect in particular from one who professes to be a prophet?
Given that these false prophets are in sheep's clothing, I think it is safe to presume that they are not lacking in good works or such virtues as gentleness or patience.
Hence, it would seem that fruit relates to their prophetic activity.
You are doing eisegesis. You are using a text that deals with spotting false prophets to prove a doctrinal point about the nature of regeneration. This is simply not what our Lord was talking about.
"I suppose it comes down to making ones election and calling sure, and how you do this."
Is Jesus talking about how His disciples can know whether they are truly saved?
No, He is talking about how to spot a false prophet. Making one's calling and election sure has nothing to do with this text.
Incidently, I do not believe that making one's call and election sure is about knowing whether one is saved. If one beleives in Jesus Christ, one has eternal life. If you trust in Jesus Christ you can be sure of going to heaven.
Making one's calling and election usre concerns whether we are fulfilling our call to be holy and conformed to Christ. If we are not walking in the Spirit, we will fail to live in accordance with the high position of our calling.
The idea of holiness being an automatic result of regeneration is foreign to the Word of God.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
Good challenge for me. I'll need to study a bit more.
Do you believe there are false-believers, people who may have acknowledged that Christ is the only way to eternal life, and yet have no love for Christ, they simply live according to their rules and morals?
I do.
It's very sad.
I like Libbie's final question: "Do you really love Him?"
If you do, then you will obey Him.
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'If anyone loves Me he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but Father's who sent Me." John 14:23
I believe the passages about fruit can surely relate to false disciples, false-teachers, and false-believers, who display bad fruit, and of course are patient and kind, and they even say they love Jesus, and believe in Him.
"A good man out of the good treasures of his heart brings forth good"
"An evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil" Luke 6:45
Have a blessed day in His grace and peace.
"Do you believe there are false-believers, people who may have acknowledged that Christ is the only way to eternal life, and yet have no love for Christ, they simply live according to their rules and morals?"
If a person believes that Christ has given Him eternal life, He has eternal life. To deny this is to deny the sufficency of Christ's saving work. There are severe consequences for a believer who refuses to become a disciple, but loss of salvation is not one of them.
The Bible says absolutely nothing about false believers. There are people who believe false gospels. There are people who pretend to be believers in order to fit in to churches. However, when it comes to belief in the Gospel, there is only belief and unbelief.
Is it not enougth to believe to receive eternal life? If so, tell me what else is required.
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
What does God require for someone to enter into His presence for all eternity?
He calls all to repent and believe the gospel: To turn from the darkness, and turn to the light.
However, no one could ever do this, although God will hold everyone who doesn't guilty.
God grants repentance and faith to all whom He wills to show His mercy to.
It's His grace and mercy that are required.
When God's mercy is bestowed upon someone, that person becomes a new creation in Christ. Repentance and faith are granted, and the heart and mind are quickened.
This person will love the Lord, because the Lord first loved him/her.
Jesus says those who love him will obey His word, thos ewho don't love Him will not obey Him.
He calls us to live by faith. And He calls us to bear fruit for the glory of His Father.
His grace, and grace alone, accomplishes all this.
He is sovereign. His mercy is incredible. His grace is amazing.
God bless.
Donsands
How does the Bible say we receive eternal life?
How does the Bible say we are justified?
Does the Bible say anywhere that repentance or loving Christ are a condition of receiving eternal life?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
Matthew,
I think we've already "been there and done this". However, here goes.
" ... 'to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
Therefore, King Agrippa, i was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." Acts 26: 17-21
"He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. ...
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 John 3:14-15; 4:7-8
"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!" 1 Cor. 16:22
Grace and joy to you and your family.
"Therefore, King Agrippa, i was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." Acts 26: 17-21"
God commands all to repent, just as He commands all to abstain from murder and idolatry. Avoiding murder and idolatry is not a condition of salvation and neither is repentance.
Notice that nothing is said here to imply that repentance is involved in obtaining eternal life.
"He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. ...
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 John 3:14-15; 4:7-8"
Do you think that an unbeliever is a part of the brethren? A brother to Christians?
Does this not rather prove that in fact a believer may hate his brother?
Having eternal life abiding in one, is not the same as posessing eternal life. There is a qualititative aspect ot eternal life, life more abundantly. It is possible to posess eternal life, but not ot experience it in the present.
Likewise, John goes on to say in His epistle that any sin shows a lack of knowkledge of God' 'He that commits sin does not know God.'
"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!" 1 Cor. 16:22
What makes you think being accursed means 'go to hell'. Is there any place in the N.T. that accursed means 'going to hell'?
Every Blessing in Christ
Matthew
right, well, this appears to be going round and round in circles.
I must confess I don't really understand there to be a desperate need to draw a huge distinction between the command to believe, and the command to repent.
I do believe there is a distinction between genuine faith, and that which is not genuine. There was certainly a time in my life when I made a bare mental assent to the gospel, and did not truly believe it in my heart. I couldn't tell you, however, the day upon which I finally, absolutely, did believe. It came on gradually.
It seems that many a free grace advocate criticizes the idea of Jesus as Lord, as expounded by John MacArthur, because it can lead to people caught in a striving mentality regarding their assurance.
But of course, the opposite problem is also true with a free-grace position, in that it sounds very much like it could lead to people viewing sanctification as an optional extra, which I don't believe it is.
Soteriology is a fascinating subject, and I think we have covered the topic as far as is fruitful on a comment-thread.
My personal position is that salvation is all of grace, and that a believer must cling to Christ in all things, and that we should indeed examine our own heats for the fruit of our conversion.
That's hearts. I'm not sure how one would examine a heat, and I don't believe a thermometer is a spiritual tester...
"as far as is fruitful"
The voice of wisdom.
"God commands all to repent, just as He commands all to abstain from murder and idolatry. Avoiding murder and idolatry is not a condition of salvation and neither is repentance."
If this is true, my friend, why then did John the Baptist (and later Christ Himself) instruct us to repent? If repentance is not necessary to salvation, why then is it one of the first things we hear of Christ teaching? (Matthew 4:17) It seems a bit odd that the Son of God would come and teach us something that wasn't absolutely vital. Indeed, John's words to the Pharisees seem to indicate that repentance, and the fruit of it, are of great importance.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matthew 3:10)
Can one truly believe and not be compelled to fall on their face in repentance? Do our hearts not break over our sin and the fact that this Blameless Lamb died in our stead? Should our hearts not break? Should we not turn away from the lives we lived to seek after, and serve, the one who bore our shame? Is this not repentance? I don't understand how this is anything but vital to one's spiritual (and eternal) state.
Kristina, I would answer your question, but Libbie has indicated that she does not wish the discussion to continue.#
You may wish to visit my team blog 'Unashamed of Grace' for discussion of some of the issues you raise.
God Bless
Matthew
Thankyou Matthew, for your understanding on this matter. Were I in slightly more robust health, I would happily devote time to the topic, and as this conversation has occured on my blog, I would feel no small sense of responsibility to moderate it, but this can't effectively be done right now.
I would certainly recommend everyone who reads this and wants to investigate the issue further do so - the more conversant we are with scripture, and why we believe as we do, the better.
Ah, sorry, I missed that one. ;) Take care guys!
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