Guarding a church after the Pope's remarks.
Some Indian Muslims burnt an effigy of the world's Roman Catholic leader who quoted remarks which linked Islam to violence.
Yes, of course. That's the way to convince everyone you're a peaceful bunch. Demand a man apologize for condemning violence in the name of God.
9/15/2006
Irony
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11 comments:
How does one communicate with such extremists who can only hear what they want to?
Well, I think it's often the human condition to only hear what we want to hear. I've heard many secularists today use this as an opportunity to call for the end of all religion, and to wheel out the hoary old 'crusades' line.
We just have to keep communicating - we must try and be persuasive, but always faithul to the truth. When push comes to shove, it's His work, and we trust that He will be utterly faithful.
You're right, Libbie, it is exceedingly silly to protest against being called violent by being violent
We will become like the "god" we serve...
It's really a 'Catch 22' sort of thing for our human nature. At least for me it is.
Putting away all anger and wrath is basically an impossibility, and yet through the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit we can overcome by faith in Christ. We can genuinely love our enemies, and bless those who curse us, and be kind to those who hate us.
All glory to our sovereign Lord, Jesus Christ.
However, there is a way to be angry and not sin.
There is something a bit depressing about the coverage which this is getting. Lately it feels as if there is a concerted effort to create a them and us.
It looks as if the world is becoming even more divided. I really don't like the look of where this is going.
There is something about the cultures in much of the Islamic world which tends towards this sort of protest.
It's not of course related just to Islam or the islamic world though, and not simply to what we call extremists - whatever we chose that to mean.
I had a russian housemate in college, who simply did not understand, really a complete failure to grasp, why we wouldn't simply rise up and overthrow our leader if we didn't like him - or her. I've come across other cultures who protest equally strongly.
I would suggest that these protests are more about culture than anythign else.
In fact, most of the muslims I know here in the UK will be frustrated by the Pope's remarks (as was I - I simply don't understand why he would chose to do that, epsiecially in the context of his whole speech), but will no more protest than I would.
I think we fall victim to the message of spearation when we fall into the stereotyping of Islam.
Vishal Mangalwadi says a similar thing to 'even so' above 'we cannot be better than the god's we serve'. The subtle difference between the two statements though, is that while we may not become better, we can easily be less.
If it's true instead that 'we become like the God we serve', then the picture I gain of Yaweh (as an easy descriptive) could easily be a very poor one, from many of the followers of his I meet.
Isn't to base our jusgements of a faith on those we see as worst to fall into that sterotyping trap ourselves. Don't we hate it when others do that to us?
As to what the pope said: Islam in britain seems to have a very clear focus on reason and rationality, on clear logic, and if I understood what pope Benedict was touching on (which is by no means certain as I read it very early this morning!)is quite contraty to the picture he draws, and very similar to the allegedly logic driven systematic theology of the Christian church.
Steve
From your perspective what you see gives you a bad picture, but you are way off, sir. It is from God's vantage point I speak of. Now you might say who am I to think I have God's perspective on things, and I would appeal to the Bible. It points us to the fact that these people do not worship Christ as God, and we see the results.
You might retort that we see many who follow Jesus, and look what we have, as Rosie O' Donnell said recently, equating Christians with Muslims in their violence.
First, no. We do not see the same level and pervasiveness of violence perpetrated by Christians. Second, many think they follow Christ but they do not. They become like the god they serve, as have and do you and I.
Yes it is bad to stereotype others, but we can move beyond that and still come to the same conclusions - Muslims are lost without Christ, and so are you and I...
Perhaps we see violence because these people do not actually serve Islam in the way it is intended, perhaps Islam is a religion of peace as some have stated, though I do not believe it. But it would make no difference, when you get down to brass tacks.
I would still speak of Christ versus Mohammed, or any other thing that would exalt itself above the true knowledge of God.
Which do you choose to serve; if you serve any but Christ you serve not Christ at all. Christ alone or the devices of man.
wow - you really went of one one there. Calling me sir and everything.
It sounds like I've offended you?
I guess you are taking issue with what I said here:
Isn't to base our jugements of a faith on those we see as worst, to fall into that sterotyping trap ourselves. Don't we hate it when others do that to us?
I didn't mention salvation, rather I suggested that we would dislike it if others based their view of The God I serve, and you serve, on the worst examples of those who profess to follow him, or on those we think profess to follow him.
Iraqi's could equally base their opinions of Jesus on the soilders from the 'Christian west' who abused their position and their prisoners. They may well call themselves Christians, I'm sure many do.
I suggested that this is a dangerous way of looking at things, that falls into a trap which is unhelpful. I wasn't intending to call you prejudiced, rather to say that, that way of looking at it led into difficulty. If you fell offended by that I am sorry that you were.
I belive that stereotyping is simply a part of human nature, and something we must continually become aware of in how we deal with people rather than a determined prejudice.
Yes we can move beyond stereotyping, and talk about salvation, and the nature of Islams from a study of Islam, yet we could also pause fo a moment and look at what I said - that we would hate it if others made assumptions about our faith, based for example on the bahaviour of those we see as behaving poorly.
We can say 'these peopel aren't really Christians' - but it's still people acting in the name of their faith, and we could just as equally judge Jesus on the basis of that, as we could Islam on the basis of the protestors.
So yes, lets move beyond the stereotyping, and we could talk on a different post about the nature of Islam, from a study of Islam, the nature of Jesus from a knwoledge of Jeses, but this wasn't about that.
I agree with those who commented about Human Nature, and I believe Jesus gives us the opportuity to rise above that. Whether we do or not, is entirely another matter, and certainly, even many followrs of Jesus, don't.
You can call me Steve by the way, no need to stand on the formalities.
Steve ;)
Okay, Steve, I think I understand you...offended, no way, I am a pastor, and my skin has to be waaaaaaayyyyy thicker than that ;0)
I called you sir because I have never encountered you on the blog comments before. I was in the process of checking out your sites before commenting, and it seemed proper...
BTW, I realize the Rosie thing was a straw man, but I still felt it needed to be said, and was relevant, even if not directly germane to the argument.
Still, we do see more of this type of thing from radical Muslims than from radical Christians...is it the radical part or the Muslim part...I think it is a little of column "a" and a little of column "b"...
Many believe, and not just "hillbillies", that the Muslim faith, rightly practiced, leads to this very sort of thing.
I say following anything other than the God of the Bible leads to the chaos we see in the world. As a religion falls further away from the true God, His common, restraining grace begins to be removed, and we see mankind as they really are.
The Muslims, so called Christians, and anyone else involved in this sort of activity points us to the wrath of God being revealed against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
Well, the Puritans of Salem in 1692 sincerely believed they were worshipping the God of the Bible in rooting out witchcraft from within their community. What really was happening was a wave of religious hysteria that resulted in the condemnation and hanging of nineteen fellow Puritans. A horrible episode in church history, but not the only one.
This is the dark side of religion, and the stupid, mindless violence in response to the Pope's (perhaps ill-advised, but certainly taken-out-of-context) remarks illustrates it well.
As Leanne Payne says, we don't fight the spiritual battle with violence and by burning heretics.
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